This thread is meant to give us all a chance to turn the others on to a book we loved that, for whatever reason, is not well known but is easily and inexpensively obtained. Please share yours!

I'll start with Cold Dog Soup. To paraphrase the Amazon description, it's an inferno-esque descent into pre-Giuliani NYC (post-LaGuardia?) in the effort to dispose of a dead dog. Check it out.

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 4, 2009, 7:28pm.

Sounds intriguing slick.

First one that came to my mind was Genoa: A Telling of Wonders, by Paul Metcalf. Metcalf was Melville's great grandson.

Here's a review of it from yesteryear: http://www.librarything.com/work/568754

I am not sure it still qualifies since it's been pushed about on LT for a while, but I shall contribute The Fish Can Sing, by Halldor Laxness, review here: http://www.librarything.com/work/295787

OK. I'd suggest, "Moscow to the end of the line" by Venedikt Erofeev. It's about an alcoholic who becomes disorientated by a vodka fuelled delirium on his way out of Moscow. It's actually very famous in Russia, but so far there's just this one, not bad, translation. It's short and funny, like an extract from Ulysses though without any modernist pretensions. It's very short, so short there's almost nothing to it, and it absolutely must be read while supping from a bottle of vodka.

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 4, 2009, 7:46pm.

#2 - I picked up Genoa based on EF's review a while back! Haven't cracked it open yet, so cannot chime in.

#3 - Of the Laxness A_m says: "This book deserves to be as canonical as Joyce's Portrait of the Artist, about the only book I can think of comparable to it in subject, scope, ambition and success." I will definitely have to check that one out.

#4 - Sounds fabulous. I just wishlisted it!

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 4, 2009, 7:55pm.

I feel sorely lacking in criteria based on which to decide whether a book is "less well known" or not, but I'll venture I Can't Stay Long by Laurie Lee. Like Orwell, minus the animal fables and future dystopia stuff, plus an optimistic streak and really really kind heart.

Oh I love threads like these. One gets to add so many interesting books to one's wishlist or subtract so many uninteresting dollars, pounds, euros, etc., from one's wallet.

Here me favs:

Pictures from an Institution by Randall Jarrell
The Tenants of Moonbloom by Edward Lewis Wallant
The Straight and Narrow Path by Honor Tracy (humor)
The Fountain Overflows by Rebecca West (serious and better known thanks to Virago)
Slouching Towards Kalamazoo by Peter De Vries (academic hijinks)
Mission Child by Maureen F. McHugh (environmental science fiction)
Miss Hargreaves by Frank Baker (weird humor)
The Sun in Scorpio by Margery Sharp (light humor)
Martha in Paris by Margery Sharp (light humor but hysterically funny)
Martha, Eric, and George by Margery Sharp (even funnier)
Boston Adventure by Jean Stafford (a fabulous and underrated book)

and . . . no one gets to laugh or make fun of me

Bab A Sub-Deb by Mary Roberts Rinehart - This book is a stitch.

And I couldn't sign off without adding the gut-wrenchingly sad 175 Essential Slow Cooker Classics by Judith Finlayson.

Nothing particularly deep here, but much loved all the same.

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 4, 2009, 9:39pm.

Oh:

Hannes Bok, The Sorcerer's Ship
John McGahern, The Dark

Off hand,
Glassblower's Children by Maria Gripe, also others by her
Pappa Pellerin's Daughter,
Hugo and Josephine; (children's)
Mrs. Stevens hears the mermaids singing by May Sarton,
Islandia by Austin Tappan Wright, one of the few "Utopias" that is not static or boring;
We dystopia, science fiction by Yevgeny Zamyatin (Russian)

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 6, 2009, 9:53pm.

Oooh, I have had We recommended to me before! If only I could track it down.

Reruns

Awesome & cheap!

I've said it before, I'll say it again, I'll take We over 1984 anyday.

That's just the sort of fellow you are. Don't throw out GO's essays with the bathwater tho. If you are calling the author of INSIDE THE WHALE a second rater, or rated second by yourself to some Yevgeny fellow, I am going to have to ask you, sir, esteemed leader though you are, to schteppe outside.

Orwell is great. 1984 isn't great. We is better than 1984. Of course Orwell surpasses Yevgeny Zamyatin when comparing their body's of work: no comparison really, Orwell wins in a landslide. But my oh my, isn't 1984 (except for that opening line) rather redundant and derivative of We. We rules the first half of the 20th century dystopian world!

In lieu of schteppin' outside, Porius, I challenge you to Guitar Hero III: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKjtGzE2f...

Pat B. is looking, shall we say, a little wooden these days.

The Tortoises by Loys Masson

A cargo of Living Tortoises is dying and rotting away under a leaden sun when a sail ship is becalmed in the middle of the indian ocean.

Ever wondered how "story-telling" started ? what was the beginning of oral literature ? What kind of stories did homo sapiens sapiens tell around the camp fire ? I think these memoires of a white hunter sum it up : to eat or be eaten

Death in the Long Grass by Peter Hathaway Capstick.

A book I loved as a teenager (I was very precocious as a child and as a teenager!) was a book called Short Stories of To-day edited by J.W.Marriott. This collection of short stories, was originally published in 1924. Of course, I do not have the 1924 edition. I have a 1961 edition that belonged to my father. He bought it in 1967 when he was in college. I’m not sure but I believe I am the only LT member who actually owns a copy of this book. This is one of my favorites.

The translation of a Russian book by Vera Panova, Seryozha: Several Stories from the Life of a Very Small Boy would be another less well known book that I’ve loved. I've re-read this book many, many times.

Anything by Denton Welch including his journals and all of Jane Bowles.

I haven't confirmed this recently, but as an undergraduate I was very taken with Paul Goodman's Empire City. I found a new copy a few years back and hope to check my memory before the end of the century.

Robert

oh this thread will ruin me.

at the risk of making a fool of myself in this very well read and literate group (how DO we define 'less well known'?) I would recommend the following:

Testament by RC Hutchinson, an excellent writer who has more or less disappeared now (touchstone keeps trying to give me something called the new testament, have no idea what that is...)
Hadrian VII by Baron Corvo
Wolf Solent by John Cowper Powys
A visit to Don Otavio's by Sybil Bedford

and of course Dostoevsky has some very good less well known works:

The Crocodile
Novel in Nine Letters
A Nasty Incident

Also, for less well known non-fiction, are there any readers of R.G. Collingwood out there?

Miss Giardino by Dorothy Bryant, my favorite of hers, though I see there are five more novels since I last read her work. The main character is a high school teacher.

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 6, 2009, 1:21am.

9>

John McGahern - good choice. I recently read his collection 'Creatures of the Earth' and was totally bowled over. I felt a fool not having read this guy before.

Having already nominated a very short novel (>4), maybe something a little heavier would even things out:

Rebecca West's 'Black Lamb and Grey Falcon' is an outstanding piece of extended travel writing. It's on Yugoslavia, and is a littel partisan in some of its political analysis, but the writing is terrific all the same.

Also heavy is T.E. Lawrence's Seven Pillars of Wisdom which I'd recommend for similar reasons, though it's not quite as good as the above, and it plays free and easy with the historical facts. However, it's brilliant in all it's flaws, and gives a very interesting perspective on the present middle-east situation. Part history, part travelog and part boy's own adventure story. The only drawback is the confusion of arab characters that Lawrence gets involved with, and his annoyingly authentic insistence in calling them by various dfferent names throughout the book (a little like reading a Russian novel but without any coherent logic to guide the reader). It's available as a Wordworth Classic, but it's rarely read, so I think it warrants inclusion.

Neither is a novel, obviously.

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 6, 2009, 9:14am.

TCM, I last read Collingwood 25 years ago in College and became rather a fan at the time. Someone I've virtually forgotten about. Interesting on History, interesting on Aesthetics.

Hurrah! Hurrah for Collingwood.

Did you know that he wrote his magnum opus The Idea of History on a Dutch cargo ship, travelling home from Indonesia during the early days of WW2?

I still return to that book often. His writing is a model of what expository prose should be.

>24 Seven Pillars of Wisdom is utterly superb. The opening dedicatory poem is one of my all time favourites. I wish he had written more.

I loved you, so I drew these tides of men into my hands
and wrote my will across the sky in stars
To earn you Freedom, the seven pillared worthy house,
that your eyes might be shining for me
When we came.

Death seemed my servant on the road, till we were near
and saw you waiting:
When you smiled, and in sorrowful envy he outran me
and took you apart:
Into his quietness.

Love, the way-weary, groped to your body, our brief wage
ours for the moment
Before earth's soft hand explored your shape, and the blind
worms grew fat upon
Your substance.

Men prayed me that I set our work, the inviolate house,
as a memory of you.
But for fit monument I shattered it, unfinished: and now
The little things creep out to patch themselves hovels
in the marred shadow
Of your gift.

I we talking about the same Collingwood that argued that art is not 'craft' but is something to do with trying to work through a problem or a vague intuition through the process of production? I thought that was an interesting attempt at a definition, and there's a thread running at the moment concerning 'art' question...

I first met Collingwood in the second volume of a many volumed history of England. The work I read was about the early Roman period. After reading it, I set my sights on becoming an archaeologist. Oh, well.

BTW, I was fifteen.

The Book of the Film of the Story of my Life William Brandt - only 43 copies noted on the site. Just a funny, light novel.

The 50 year Sword - Mark Danielewski this is kind of expected that there's only 50 something copies read - there were only 1000 copies printed in English.

Skirt and Fiddle - Tristan Egolf. I liked this better than his other apparently barely known work Kornwolf but both are eclipsed by Lord of the Barnyard

At the very least, I recommend that people read the review another user left for Kornwolf...it's a good laugh.

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 6, 2009, 12:39pm.

This thread has turned out better than my wildest (well, maybe not my wildest ) dreams! I have been wishlisting and investigating away.

And by less well-known I don't mean rare or obscure - I just mean off the beaten path of the canons.

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 6, 2009, 12:56pm.

I didn't LOVE it, but it was still a pretty good book: Music With Dancing; kinda like August Rush meets Forrest Gump.

DISCLOSURE: I know the author of this book (not well), and he came to my writing critique group once.

James Hogg, 1770-1835
PRIVATE MEMOIRS & CONFESSIONS OF A JUSTIFIED SINNER
1824

Thomas Amory
THE LIFE OF JOHN BUNCLE, ESQ.
1756
Amory was a great example of an English eccentric. He never left home until after dusk. Colin Wilson called him one of the few insane to have ever written a serious novel - we can of course differ with him on this. Amory carried on till the ripe old age of 97, he died in 1788.

both Hogg and Amory died in November

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 6, 2009, 4:06pm.

I don't know how obscure this is, but I did enjoy The Tenant of Wildfell Hall by Anne Bronte, one of the "lesser" Brontes. It's more Emily than Charlotte, what with the shockingforthetime bits.

#34 - not too obscure I'd guess....2,200 or so have it :)

Also: Qhoenix is an amazing book!

Disclosure: I am currently writing Qhoenix, and it is not actually amazing.

#36: At least a lot of the books in your library show some promise with your reading taste. Of course, I'm saying your reading tastes are good because they hold a bit in common with mine, so not sure if that says much. Plus, readers don't always make great (or even good writers) which is probably why I'm still an editor . . .

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 6, 2009, 4:20pm.

>22 Murushka,

I am weeping in my soup. You once told me you had not read Wolf Solent, which I told you was perfectly horrid. You told me Powys' A Glastonbury Romance was your favorite on the strength of which I purchased said book. I am a crushed, broken woman. I doubt if if large bowlfuls of gelato, bottles of absinthe or herring will be able to rescue me from what I fear will be my speedy decline.

well, I thought about putting AGR on the list, but then I thought, you know, 'less well known', and AGR is probably his most well known book.

Did I say I had not read WS? I'm sure I have somewhere along the line. Oh dear. I feel an Anglo Saxon attitude coming on, along with my EOA.

I'm going to hit the Proctologist. Back in a minute.

Don't hit the proctologist!!!! I lust after him/her. It a love of two unseen lovers - when I'm not succumbing to the blandishments of Baron von Kindle and Beloved.

I enjoyed Henry Fieldingʻs Jonathan Wild. From critiques I read at the time (the 1950s) I had the impression that itʻs not as highly regarded as his Tom Jones or even Joseph Andrews. It probably is closer than "Tom" or "Joseph" to a non-fiction, being based on a real character -- probably a Restoration era rogue, brought into the later generations of Fieldingʻs time.

More John Cowper Powys I have enjoyed:

In spite of: a philosophy for everyman
Odes and other poems
Samphire
Letters to Henry Miller

What about THE OBSTINATE CYMRIC? Of course with a name like Porius you'd expect it of me that I've read through a great deal of JCP's works. Wasn't happy with the recent biography, too much made of all the borborygms. I appreciate the scatological as well a the next man but Krisdottir got carried away, it seems to me. JCP was one of the 20th centuries great ones. I would have paid anything to attend one of the lectures he gave here in the states. He was a great friend of Theodore Dreiser, say what you want about TD's brand of 'realism,' He knew how to choose his friends well.

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 6, 2009, 11:43pm.

For those that don't object to English English, there's L.P. Hartley's The Go-Between. It has one of the most famous opening lines in English English fiction.

45> So long as it's marinaded with onion, vinegar and lemon...

But some readers (myself on occasion) find early twentieth century (British) English language is occasionally a little bit stiff in comparison with American and Irish stuff of the same period. It's not meant as an evaluative statement.

Anyway, this is off-topic...

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 7, 2009, 7:40am.

occasion, occasionally, a little bit stiff, Irish stuff? On what occasions do you find early 20th century (British) English lacking in elasticity? You've got my interest 3rd cheek.

Sorry, I don't really want to enter into a debate about stiffness in (British) English. The comment was only intended to be helpful to those who recognise the charge of 'stiffness' (it's obviously a subjective complaint, but experience tells me that it's not uniquely mine). If you don't recognise the charge of 'stiffness', then there's no need to pay it any attention.

On the other hand, did you take offense? And, if so, why?

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 8, 2009, 10:19am.

51> The herring joke is getting a little tired.

And I refer you to my previous response.

I have an easy time identifying the English stiffs. Even the one I like (Iris Murdoch) is admittedly stiff. The inelasticity of the English Novel neither began nor ended in the period third cheek is talking about.

I'll start the ball rolling identifying two stiffs: ones that I expect will have many defenders. One of my good friends in college used to roar at Wodehouse and Waugh. Like a good friend, he lovingly thrust upon me his own beloved books, insisting I spend some time with them. But I don't get them. He was always completely disappointed when I simply gave up on one of his beloveds midway through as unworthy of my attention.

I am sure it is my loss, but the Jeeves books always struck me as full of a variety of fairly obvious jests about fairly uninteresting people who so heavily defined themselves by their family and society that they lost all interest, and Waugh even more so. I think to one who worships in the American church of individuality (a nice bower of trees forming a natural cathedral, accessible only by a fair climb through the wilderness), there are simply large amounts of British literature that are quite foreign, and not in any interesting way. If we have to get into some of the "better" novelists, I'd start with Austen. When I recognize a bit of humor in her, I cringe; when I don't, I'm baffled; when she believes she has some keen psychological insight about her characters I usually feel nothing but pity and disdain at the poor sods.

Now, I don't find English poetry at all inelastic ("we must not look at Goblin men/ we must not buy their fruits"), and enjoy many of the plays, whose constrictions seem to work for, for example, Shaw; nor do I find many of the great non-novel classics of British lit brittle (I wonder about the etymology of Brit-tle?), but from the death of Charles Lamb to the day Iris picks up her pen, I find English prose a bit of a desert. Maybe there are some I'm forgetting, but it seems an odd and broad stretch of fairly barren literary territory to me. Someone find me an oasis, before I mangle another metaphor.

And the herring joke is better than anything in Wodehouse. I like herring, though not to eat.

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 8, 2009, 11:33am.

We are the hollow men, we are the stiff men, leaning together headpiece filled with straw
our dry voices when we whisper together are quiet and meaningless

Um, Third_Cheek, let me say how much you REEK of being a nasty sock puppet, as opposed to a fun sock puppet. Your REEK stinks to high Hell of sock puppetry. I'm "this close" to reporting you to Tim Spalding; not because I'm a hippo critter and can't stand sock puppets - I love sock puppets (when they're funny) - but because it's apparent to me whom you probably truly are and whom you're attempting to rile up. You do realize that the LT world these days isn't safe for sock puppets? That's there's zero tolerance going on right now for them?

Keep up the irritation and annoyance just for the sake of irritation and annoyance, and we'll just see how fast you get your sorry sock puppet ass suspended.

Test me, sorry ass sock puppet, go after tomcat one more time, and let's just see what happens.

thirdcheek hasn't much to say. if that's how he takes his fun we can only have pity for him.

Enrique Freeque>

What are you talking about? I wasn't trying to wind anyone up. I just don't intend to get drawn into a discussion I'm not that interested in, hence at 51> 'I refer you to my previous response'.

By all means report me for 'sockpuppetry' and find yourself very much mistaken. This is all very silly, and paranoid.

'Go after tomcat one more time' - I haven't gone after tomcat even once. Perhaps you are referring to 'The herring joke is getting a little tired'. If that's harassment then I dread to think what a serious offence might be on this site.

I came into this particular thread to talk about 'Less well known books I have read' and simply didn't want to be pushed into discussing anything I don't want to discuss.

Now I find myself being accused of 'sockpuppetry', and I've only been on the site a couple of days. Hardly very welcoming is it?

hey - i'll take recommendations from anyone - stiff, loose, real, fictional, i don't care! i do like them on the literary side tho' even if genre reads.

>58

Back on topic - 'Hurrah!'

How about Huysmans's M. Bougran's Retirement and With The Flow. The two are collected together in a single very short volume published by Hesperus.

If you've ever had a miserable and boring office job, or anticipate being unceremoniously retired from your professional vocation against your will, then these two novellas/long-short stories might entertain.

>53 - A_musing

I hadn't anticipated agreeing with you about anything, A_musing, but it appears that I do. Thankyou for stepping into the breach. And you are quite right, of course: in suggesting that early 20C British English is a bit stiff, I certainly didn't mean to rule out the possibility of there being plenty of other periods in British literature that are also replete with stiffness.

Anyway. Back to the topic. Huysmans's novellas/short stories - my recommendation.

Fiction:
Trumbull Park by Frank London Brown:
Not the best writing but fascinating because it is a true story told by one of the participants. And because the events described are perhaps difficult to believe for those unfamiliar with the depth of racism in the North in mid-20th century USA. A black family moves into a previously all-white public housing development in Chicago in 1953. The initial integration is almost a mistake as the wife who goes to the housing office is light-skinned enough to pass. However, the liberal housing authority decides to back the integration and eventually helps several other black families move into the development. The local white community responds with a reign of terror including large-scale vandalism, threats of violence and the continual setting off of noise-making explosives (think the fireworks designed not for the flash but the boom). Mayor Daley's police provide perfunctory protection including escorts to and from work and the store, but refuse to take concerted action against the mob. This goes on for over ten years, only diminishing in the mid-1960s as it becomes clear that integration would not proceed beyond the token level. Anyone with access to academic journals may also be interested in the article by Arnold R. Hirsch Massive Resistance in the Urban North: Trumbull Park, Chicago, 1953-1966, The Journal of American History, Vol. 82, No. 2 (Sep., 1995), pp. 522-550.

Stones of Bobello by Edwar Al-Kharrat:
Impressionistic vignettes of growing up in a small town in early 20th century Egypt. I wasn't bowled over, but I was taken enough to consider checking out some of the author's other works (uh, sometime).

Before the Dawn by Shimazaki Tōson:
An epic tale of the fall of the Shogunate told from the point of view of the operator of an inn on one of the old post roads between Edo and Kyoto. Slow moving, but beautiful in it's cumulative impact. A warning note: the only LT review is short but very spoilery.

Diary of a Madman and other stories by Lu Xun:
Lu Xun was an important author of both stories an essays in the period of Chinese modernization and revolution in the 1910s and 1920s. The stories here express both a sense of irony and love for Chinese culture and tradition (well perhaps more on the ironic side). The University Hawaii edition comes with a helpful introduction and a brief guide to pinyin, the endlessly frustrating (at least for me) official romanization of Chinese.

Banjo, a Story without a Plot by Claude McKay:
A multiracial cast of ex-sailors bums around Marseilles in the years following WWI. McKay was a fairly well known writer of the Harlem renaissance and is rather poorly represented on LT. I was interested in how some of the depictions of the culture of race under colonialism prefigured the ideas of Frantz Fanon.

Nonfiction:
Hard to decide. The vast majority of books I have read have less than 100 copies on LT. Also tends toward the narrow in subject matter. Are people actually interested in hearing about history/anthropology/sociology/politics etc. on this thread?

I second BLGF.

Fiction
The War of Don Emmanuel's Nether Parts, Louis de Bernières, part of a trilogy and I read that the others are even better; magic realism appropriate to its Latin American setting; fun.

Mulberry and Peach by Hualing Nieh, an allegory for 20th century China (I finally decided) with a psychotic Chinese-American female protagonist.

Non-fiction
For the sake of all living things by John Del Vecchio, set in Cambodia during the Vietnam War; riveting except for the war sequences; just read around them, if you need to (like I did).

Artful Universe by John D. Barrow about all the questions you may have asked or haven't yet thought to ask about the physical world/universe with answers I sometimes only half-understood; wonderful to read and re-read.

Poetry
A Poet's Guide to Poetry by Mary Kinzie, a summer's or a year's or a lifetime's worth of educating oneself in writing poetry.

Third_cheek: without intending to prolong this discussion unnecessarily, I find myself compelled to respond to your jab about your lack of welcome. I've found everyone here superficially very welcoming and, as I've started to get to know them a little better, lovely people as well. Good manners work wonders. Like, go over your responses again and consider whether you might have done anything to provoke the situation, dude.

(And I like the herring joke).

As mentioned, I thought your insinuation needed public refutation, but I didn't intend to reignite that particular discussion--feel free to respond on my profile page if you have something to say (or email me, hell), but I won't respond to any further comments on the topic on this thread. I hope that this was just a matter of different levels of expectation re netiquette, and hope you'll stick around:)

After all of that, allow me to recommend another "less known work", although I still find it impossible to gauge how well most works are actually known in the world at large: JB MacKinnon's Dead Man in Paradise. MacKinnon later became better known as the hundred-mile diet guy, but he had a notable journalistic career before that, and for the often unfortunate memoir genre, this is gripping shit.

Am I missing something? I didn't find anything in Third_Cheek's posts that seemed to be attacking anyone. Is there something happening elsewhere that I am not aware of?

I must admit that I have a certain amount of stiffness in my character, worse for me because I don't live in one of the cultures recognized for "stiffness."

64> Thanks Solla.

As it happens I'm from that very nation which I accused of occasional literary stiffness, so it's not as though that could be considered an attack either. Phew!

Anyway, back to the topic... hopefully!!

Hey,

I missed all the herring jokes. Murrushka send me a private PM. I hate missing all the gossip.

Murr,

you are much loved.

Please continue to spread cheer including herring, vodka and whatever strikes your fancy. Those who do not like herring can abstain and keep their dislike to themselves.

You are the GREATEST!

And on top of that your erudition is downright scary. Perhaps an element of jealousy out there as well?

And now courtesy of the powers that be, we return you to your regularly scheduled program: "Less well known books I have read."

Actually I like herring and vodka. Which is unsurprising given that it's the staple diet here.

Tomcatmurr's erudition has not been questioned.

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 8, 2009, 7:22pm.

Peace, peace, peace.

In all languages of the world, peace.

"Less well known books I have read"? Anybody???

Well, I looked at my catalog sorting it based on total copies on LT, and thought I had some pretty interesting stuff with only 1 or 2 copies in the whole place.

One of them was My Chinese Marriage by Mae M. Frankling by Katherine Anne Porter. Porter ghost-wrote this memoir of an intercontinental marriage from nearly a century ago. I scrounged up a first edition on Abebooks a while back. Both a literary piece and an interesting bit of historical insight into global race and gender issues before your mother was born.

I'd suggest Autumn Ball by Mati Unt. It's one of the better Estonian novels of the late Soviet period. Intelligent, well-observed urban ennui and with a wry humour. A couple of other Unt novels have been translated - Things in the night and Diary of a blood donor. The latter is worth a look, but 'Things' is not among his best - I thought it was desperately in need of a ferocious editor.

Note: the 'Touchstone' link to Autumn Ball leads to a different book with a different title. It may be out of print?

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 8, 2009, 9:45pm.

>60 Lu Xun yes!!!! He, together with Eiling Chang were the two main writers of what I call the Shanghai Renaissance, a short lived flowering of culture in Shanghai between the Revolution and the Japanese invasion.

Lu Xun died of tuberculosis in 1936.

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 8, 2009, 10:14pm.

One of the funniest books I have ever read is No Bed for Bacon by Caryl Brahms and her partner in crime whose name I don't remember. With the exception of a few aficionados of her work, few people have read it, with the notable exception of Tom Stoppard who claimed not to have read it although he clearly ripped off major portions of it for the screenplay of Shakespeare in Love.

Pinckney Benedict's Dogs of God, a modern southern gothic. Marijuana growers instead of moonshiners. Really well-written. Don't know why he isn't bigger.

AND

Alex LaGuma's A Walk in the Night and other stories. Here's the "one star" low review at Amazon: Within such short context, La Guma goes into great detail about minuscule and usually unimportant aspects of apartheid and the continued collapse of African tradition and society. He introduces many characters and explains too much about each one, straying the reader from the main "crux" of the story. This does in fact work well for the description of the society in which the story takes place, and paints a morbid, dreadful glance at the decaying African society for it's readers to interpret. He fails to follow through with some important details, which makes it more frustrating to read. If you are looking for a story which tells the absolute truth of life and the hardships it brings, without any positive resolution, I would recommend this book. Otherwise... I wouldn't suggest this for people who are easily depressed and looking for quick, easy and interesting read.
Now keep in mind that is the lowest review. Either it will appeal to you or it won't. LaGuma is biracial and (perhaps "so") his canvas is a bit broader than many African writers I have read (admittedly very limited!)

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 8, 2009, 11:14pm.

>Slick

Given that the reviewer recommended the book for anyone who wanted to know the 'absolute truth' the 'one star' does seem a bit harsh. You'd think that 'absolute truth' would warrant at least a 'four'. I often wonder about 'one star' reviews. Sure, some books deserve it, but for me to give a 'one star' I'd have to feel in retrospect as though I had handed over the money and read it while a knife was held to my throat. This seems to me pretty rare. I can't help thinking that many (not all) 'one star' evaluations are exercises in vanity - the reviewer wants to skew the overall ratings towards their preferred rating by giving the worst possible mark, and a review that warrants a 'two' or a 'three' is instead accompanied by a kind of 'double' vote.

If that was the worst review, then it sounds like a decent book. I'll keep an eye open for it, thanks.

I don't really understand the one stars either...maybe I just haven't had the bad luck to come across one of them. Although, I feel I may have done so in the recently, but having caught a very obvious grammar mistake in the intro sentence, I quickly filed it where it belonged. Hopefully, it's reincarnated as something more useful - like toilet paper.

Some people use stars in ways that are dangerous. One user I've seen uses one star for a "good" book, and more stars for "better" books, which would really suck for an author if this user was the only one to get a copy of his/her book on LT.

Though, this same user uses "no stars" to indicate a bad book, which is equally useless, in my humble opinion.

I wish that Tim would standardize the stars, so at least we'd all be using them the same way: 1 - really bad, 2 - bad, 3 - impartial, 4 - good, and 5 - really good. You know, my way.

80> "One star for good" that's kind of sweet. I can imagine the user struggling to avoid offending the author - "I gave the book one star, but it's not bad, it's good, really, please don't cry..."

I propose another star-rating system:

5 - You are a literary genius, go forth, procreate, let all of our children learn from your example (writing well, not procreating)
4 - Lovely. You really are such a lovely person. Are you single? What colour eyes do you have? Really? That's my favourite colour!
3 - That was fun. Writing probably isn't your main source of income though, is it?
2 - Please do continue writing despite my complete indifference to whatever you may produce. It's probably harmless.
1 - Either turn yourself in to the nearest available police officer, or step outside and shoot yourself in the head. Either way, don't write anything ever ever again, ever.

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 9, 2009, 12:19pm.

>82.

I think your punishment for 1 star is kinda rough. How 'bout just a lifetime ban from communicating via the written word?

>83

But that's worse than death.

#80 Hmm, are you talking about me? Well if you are then the thing is that you are free to agree or disagree with me on the way I rate the books I've read. But if Tim standardizes the stars, what about individuality and personal freedom? I respect your opinion but I don't think anyone should tell anyone else how to rate the books they've read or how to do anything else for that matter. Anyway, hope I’ve made myself clear. :-)

>85

I suppose the whole point about the star rating is that it gives a quick guide to the reviewer's overall evaluation without the need to read what the reviewer said. The expectation is that '5' means excellent whereas '1' means terrible. If you call 1 'good' then this tacit agreement (I thought it was a tacit agreement) falls apart. On the other hand, perhaps you just define 1 as 'good' but only give it to books which are, relatively, really bad, in which case 'good' does seem misleading but it makes no difference because you'll be using the stars in much the same way as everyone else.

I've just seen your system Porua, and it's slightly more sophisticated than I was lead to believe. One star simply means 'above average'. It's interesting. Perhaps the average book just is weak. I suppose you don't bother reading through terrible books so they don't get reviewed. That's not an unreasonable approach. I wouldn't read them either.

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 9, 2009, 12:40pm.

I wouldn't want to impose a standard stars system. I tend not to give much weight to overall book rating because, well, what do all these other people know anyhow. I DO look at who owns a book I am curious about so I can see what people I respect or have learned the tastes of think about it. I wouldn't necessarily have clicked through to learn of, say, Poura's system unless there was a review or I had looked at and remembered the system from a previous peep at the profile.

I use three for good, four for better and five for best and try to judge books within their genre because there are some apples and oranges difficulties if you don't in my opinion. I don't give low ratings at all but I have issued a two on occasion when I was really disappointed with an author. That seems peevish, doesn't it?

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 9, 2009, 1:42pm.

>85.

Well, not you specifically, but it appears you use the same (imho) (mostly) worthless rating system.

It's just, if Tim standardized the star ratings, we could have worthwhile metrics from book ratings. Right now, it's just a bazaar of different things to different people, such that if a book has a 4.00 star average, it means that the star ratings it received averaged out to 4.00, and nothing else, as opposed to other places that have a more standard star rating (or at least a recommendation), in which you see a four-star review, and you think, "this product may be worth my hard earned money."

Likewise to what Third Cheek said in 86, if you're still making it a linear (or geometric, or even exponential) improvement on the quality of the book (that is, a 1-star is worse than a 2-star), your ratings do have some merit (versus people who invert it or something); it's just that: what would you feel about a college professor who gave you a D for "above average" work, (that is, for doing better than most of the class)?

Also, a zero star is not formulated at all into the averages, as the system believes that a zero star is, actually, an unrated book. So, unrated books are, well, to continue with the tautologies, unrated books.

#88. But the ratings even if they were standardized won't make truly be useful anyway unless you take a look at a person's library and see what they've rated other things. If someone with typically different tastes than me were to offer a five star review of a genre they don't usually read (or a one star for that matter) it's not going to be as good as if someone who often reads that genre were to offer a three star review.

Usually, I'll loosely use the stars as guidance (navigation?) in my choices. But, if I'm really undecided about a book, I will read reviews and then see what books those reviewers have in their libraries that are the same as mine. If their star ratings are close to mine, I'll take their opinion on what's right for me more seriously. In the end, maybe I'm taking more time figuring out what to read than actually reading... *sigh*

Unfortuneatly, my star rating system is completely goofy, but I wouldn't want to change it. If I honestly evaluate it, I probably give lower star ratings to books I find just totally boring. I would like to think that I have enough literary taste to be automatically not bored by good writing, and utterly unmoved by bad writing..but I don't trust myself enough to assume that. My rating system is a gut reaction, sadly, but I don't want to change it.

I figure with me having explanations of how my ratings work out, it makes them at least semi-useful for those so inclined to look. But, I could be absolutely wrong.

>89.

But that's what you'd have to do on Amazon anyway, if you wanted to be truly thorough. But, we're not focusing on isolated cases. We're focusing on the crowdsourced results AND interpreting them through own own view of the world.

Take the example of Twilight. There are people who rate it and say it is the best book ever written. Likewise, there are people who rate it and say it is the worst book ever written.

In less clear-cut examples, if there was no significant split between highest and lowest (that is, it is effectively universally hated, or it is effectively universally loved), then the odds are good that you'll hate/love it.

But in the case of Twilight, you'd have to look deeper into it. Like you suggest, you have to actually look at some libraries. More often than not, you'll (and I don't mean necessarily YOU) look at the top rated reviews. If it's indistinguishable from there, you'll probably look at the top-rated 5 and the top-rated 1 (or even the top-rated "good" and the top-rated "bad"), and see how many books you have in common with that user, and what they think of your favorite book from that intersection, or if you're feeling particularly frisky, a few books.

The ratings would have implicit utility, if not explicit utility, because you could then crunch numbers more accurately. I think LT has a zeitgeist entry for books that have a pretty even split of ratings (a lot of low-stars vs. a lot of high-stars). Using the rating I disliked earlier, this would actually hurt the book that was "above average," swaying it more to the realm of "universally bad."

(Likewise, under this method there's no way to identify "bad" books. How do we know which books you've "taken for the team"? Are we all just destined to fall into the same ditch, then? KTHXINFO.)

Of course, star ratings, no matter where, are, and I admit this freely, pretty much useless. Did you know that on YouTube, five-star ratings are the highest type represented? And there are more five-star ratings than other ratings COMBINED. One-star is second place.

This is due, though, to the general apathy of users. If you LOVE something, you're more likely to rate/review it than if you hate it. If you HATE something, you're more likely to rate/review it than if you don't care. And if you don't care, you're more likely to rate/review it if you have OCD.

It's also due to the novelty of particular things. If something makes an ephemeral but strong impression on you, you're likely to rate it THEN and NOW, even though you'd probably give it a lower/higher rating if you thought about it for a short while, came back to it and rated it.

Finally, it's due to how much you agree with the topic. If you totally disagree with something, you're going to one-star it no matter how convincing the argument is. Likewise, if you totally agree with something, you're going to five-star it, even if it's greatly flawed. Unless you think about it. People don't normally do this, or feel bad about giving props to people they disagree with. Human nature, or something.

So, I blame the user for worthless ratings. Get with the freaking program, users!

#88 "Worthless" to you, you mean? Anyway, I think you're taking this whole rating thing waaaay too seriously. Just chill, man! Isn't reading (and rating and reviewing and LT etc, etc.) suppose to be 'fun'?

#92 I agree with almost all of what you're saying. The point that stuck out the most is the rating right away, or thinking about it for a while before rating. That's a problem I've been kicking around.

Many of the books I've rated, I read a long time ago. So, things get a little hazy. If I read them again, would they still be rated the same? In many cases, no. After all, part of the reading process is the enjoyment in the discovery of the text. For novels, once you've read them, you know the ending and for some books, that's incredibly important. For other works, you've already sopped up some of the knowledge they have to pass on, so you won't "get" as much from a second read. In some cases, when a work has many layers, yes, I may enjoy it more on further readings. But I figure the best, most accurate way to review is to use first impressions since most people probably will never get around to picking up the book, but if they do, they'll read it once and if they enjoy it great.

Although, I think at the heart of it I agree most with the youtube example. I want to elevate the things I like and bring down the things I don't like.

Where you talk about disagreeing with a convincing argument, I think you're probably right in most cases. Personally, I do go a different route though. I've often had arguments for putting out a point of view I don't believe in, but I express it because I'm aware of it and I want to give people both sides of a story to let them make their own decisions.

There have even been a few novels that I hated - I hated the characters maybe, or the story itself, but I really appreciated the skill of the writer in bringing out such a visceral response.

Porua - you need to read the fine print - there's no fun allowed. I rated that rule 1/2 star.

I need a drink...

I propose an alternate system, where we rate 1-5 stars for good stuff and 1-5 drinks for bad stuff. If it's only readable after 5 drinks, well, at least we'll know not to open it until then.

#95 Oh no! No fun allowed? Really? I must be at the wrong place then. Because I read books to relax and having fun is a good way of relaxing! ;-)

Now returning you to your regularly scheduled program which left off somewhere around #79.

#97 I think you've hit upon the solution. Coincidently, all my books are actually hollowed-out to hold bottles. My ratings are based on if it was a good drink or bad.

I'm going to hand the controls back to someone who actually knows how to fly this thread... sorry! :)

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 9, 2009, 2:07pm.

My bet, not being a math whiz or a statistician, is that 99% of LT users use the rating system along the the low # (bad) to high # (excellent) continuum, and that those who implement esoteric, highly stylized ratings systems do not represent a statistically significant percentage of users to truly skew the numbers all out of whack for those who use the ratings systems in a more "ratings orthodox" manner.

Le Salon accepts users who are both orthodox and unorthodox in their use of ratings. We eschew statistical intolerance in all its egregious guises.

#101 Le Salon accepts users who are both orthodox and unorthodox in their use of ratings. We eschew statistical intolerance in all its egregious guises.

Well said, Enrique! You see, this is why I love LT (and the Salon!) because it accepts everyone regardless of who they are or what they do or how well (or ill!) they rate their books!

Can You say that again Henry ? I was outside getting some ice - cubes

Sure Mac,

My bet, not being a math whiz or a statistician, is that 99% of LT users use the rating system along the the low # (bad) to high # (excellent) continuum, and that those who implement esoteric, highly stylized ratings systems do not represent a statistically significant percentage of users to truly skew the numbers all out of whack for those who use the ratings systems in a more "ratings orthodox" manner.

Le Salon accepts users who are both orthodox and unorthodox in their use of ratings. We eschew statistical intolerance in all its egregious guises.

You know what they say about statistics / It's like a girl in a bikini, shows a lot but hides the essentials and it is especially the essentials that we are interested in.

but you are right Henry... ( sigh ) ... as always

In that case I reserve the right to use all evaluative terms to mean whatever the hell I like. Starting from 'totally crap' - meaning quite good actually; through to 'twinkly' - meaning an unsurpassed work of genius. I will use 'genius' to mean unmitigatedly pretentious and totally crap - i.e. well written but bullshit. I will vary the meaning of these terms as and when I feel like it.

On second thoughts I may not. This, I believe, is genius.

Remind me, what's the thread about?

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 9, 2009, 2:50pm.

101 and 104

Fidel,

no, no, no.

I Czech girl who work hard to understand. My dictionary almost all worn out now this discussion.

You CANNOT say "Le Salon accepts users who are both orthodox and unorthodox in their use of ratings. We eschew statistical intolerance in all its egregious guises." Is NO.

You dictator, remember.

YOU say, le peuple listen. People no listen, they go to guillotine. Salon no democracy, no eschew. (Bless you.)

I keep looking for these rating things, but can't find them. I rate Virapol, bikini and all, a 4.0.

>93.

"Worthless" to you, you mean?

Yes, that's what "imho" generally is understood to mean.

110 A_Musing

I thank you. You most kind to poor Czech girl. Some men say I "10" but this a different rating?

I use imagination for you. I no know you. But in imagination if highest is 5, for me you 6.

A_musing do not encourage virapol. She is no innocent Czech lass. She is far more dangerous than Clarel. I know whereof I speak.

Well, apart from the few witty interjections from sane people, that was probably the most boring discussion the Salon has yet had.

Congratulations to all involved.

Porua, you rate your books the way you want, love. They are your books and no one elses. Those who want a 'system' to keep the 'metrics' pure can go join Tim in his Gradgrind heaven, or join a market research company, or measure their penises or something equally quantitative and meaningless...

Shen jing bing la.

I agree with Enrique in 104 that especially if a book gets at least 30 ratings, which is generally considered a normal sample size, a few people using their own individualistic system probably won't change the average rating much. - not a statistician but was required to study quite a bit of statistics, etc. on the way to a psych degree.

Also, those statistics text, though less well known, are emphatically not in my loved category.

114> Ei ole hull!

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 10, 2009, 6:41am.

115> Not that I want to get involved in a discussion about statistics, but...

It depends on the size of the sample, as your example '30+' implies. And the 'normal' sample is itself a statistical abstraction in this case.

On second thoughts I might have to retract 116> :

Shen jing bing la.

Sõnum on autori poolt redigeeritud, nov. 10, 2009, 6:46am.

>114.

Sorry, my combination of Dissocial Personality Disorder and Asperger's really makes me like to find a pigeonhole for every pigeon.

Eh. None of the voices in my head tell me I'm crazy. Anyway, I guess I'll stay out of this thread since it's getting less about discussion and more about insulting.

more about insulting

Indeed. We've lost a cool member because of it.

huh?